Talk:Susanoo/Archive 3
Page format I created a test page to show how it would looks like if the Susanoo was sorted by state instead of character. What do you think? --Fox616 (talk) 16:33, September 29, 2012 (UTC) :I'm not really seeing an issue with how the page looks right now. Also, if you want to create test pages like this, do it in your own userspace, not as subpages of articles (eg User:Fox616/Sandbox/Susanoo Test) --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel 16:35, September 29, 2012 (UTC) Opening 12 Opening 12 updated Sasuke's final Susanoo to its new design, but left it with the same incorrect weaponry it was depicted with in the anime before. Is it worth adding errors only found in an opening to a trivia point, or should this be ignored?--BeyondRed (talk) 02:39, October 5, 2012 (UTC) :It's an opening, we can't really account for that.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:22, October 5, 2012 (UTC) new susanoo pic ideas shouldn't we put pictures of all susanoo versions as the info box pic--Kmorrison (talk) 17:09, December 9, 2012 (UTC) :No. That's why we have the galleries. Omnibender - Talk - 17:30, December 9, 2012 (UTC) Madara's Susanoo Hello. I saw there are different translations regarding what Madara said about his perfect Susanoo's power. There are ones that make him say it is as strong as the tailed beasts, and others that put Susanoo even stronger than the tailed beasts. Which is correct?-- (talk) 13:14, February 8, 2013 (UTC) Correct translation is comparable to tailed beast power--Elveonora (talk) 18:19, February 8, 2013 (UTC) : More to the point, shouldn't Madara's 'Stabilized' Final Susanoo be called 'Perfect Susanoo' since its separate stage?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 07:25, October 3, 2013 (UTC) Kurama/Susanoo Fusion Can someone please add a cooler version of the Kurama/Susanoo fusion that looks more like a dragon then anything else. The current one tbh sucks. -- (talk) 18:45, February 21, 2013 (UTC) It's not a fusion, but an armor and feel free to take a shot yourself--Elveonora (talk) 18:48, February 21, 2013 (UTC) The problem is that the pic was removed...soo can someone slap that back together? Darksusanoo (talk) 15:20, February 26, 2013 (UTC) Sasuke's Susanoo color was NOT shown first in the anime "Itachi and Sasuke's Susanoo are depicted as different colours in the anime than in the manga. This is due to the fact that their Susanoo were illustrated in the anime before being coloured in the manga." This is blatantly false. Volume 51, which first showed the color of Sasuke's Susanoo in the manga, was released on April 30, 2010. Shippuuden Episode 214, which first showed the color of his Susanoo in the anime, aired in June 2011. That's almost a full year. Pierrot already knew that his Susanoo canonically has a purple/violet hue, even if they slightly changed the shade to be closer to the traditional purple. (talk) 05:51, March 20, 2013 (UTC) Junk Trivia/Question I propose that this wiki delete this trivia point, "In Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations and Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 3, while conjuring his Susanoo's ribcage to defend himself, Sasuke can also conjure his Susanoo's hand to ensnare opponents.". Its junk trivia and all Susanoo users have used the ribcage-arm combo in Ultimate Storm 3 as a part of a attack. If anyone that objects to this just say so but I think its not notable at all. As for my question, why delete the manga image of Itachi's Susanoo Skeleton? The rib cage is different from the anime plus it is worth more of a mention than the above junk trivia I am complaining about. -- (talk) 04:22, March 28, 2013 (UTC) :Since no one has objected to it then I am deleting it.-- (talk) 08:32, March 29, 2013 (UTC) Supplementary Since Susanoo could be equipped onto a Tailed Beast wouldn't that make it supplementary as well?Cloudtheavenger (talk) 00:46, April 5, 2013 (UTC) :Not sure. It was still being used to attack and defend. Omnibender - Talk - 02:27, April 5, 2013 (UTC) But it was used to increase Kurama's offensive and defensive capabilities.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 02:49, April 5, 2013 (UTC) :That's why it's classified as Offensive and Defensive. Arrancar79 (talk) 03:45, April 5, 2013 (UTC) Let me rephrase that. Susanoo was used to enhance Kurama's capabilities not to attack or defend against Hashirama directly. It's like how the Flying Thunder God Technique is classified as supplemental. Even though it's used for both offense and defense, it isn't used for them directly it just transport the user for offense and defense.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 03:53, April 5, 2013 (UTC) :Classifications come directly from the Databook won't they ?, we will have to stick with given Databook information until a new Databook is released--[[User talk:East Dragons|''East Dragons Feast]] 07:09, April 5, 2013 (UTC) I wouldn't know I've never read the databooks. I thought most of that information was debated among the editors of this wikia to make it as accurate as possible but if it's directly from the databooks I'll end my argument here and now.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:02, April 5, 2013 (UTC) please, kindly explain to me... Why do we list Susanoo Bow and Susanoo Sword as tools? Those aren't actual tools, just chakra given form just like the very rest of Susanoo, the only tools are Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror ! :-/ we don't list Chakra arms as tools either, do we?--Elveonora (talk) 10:18, April 22, 2013 (UTC) :Therefore, if they wanted to create any weapon they wanted to, all they would need to do is form the chakra? Those weapons came with people's Susanoo, so we list them as weapons. The weapons Itachi equipped to his own Susanoo simply aren't mentioned there for that exact reason: he equipped them to it.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:49, April 22, 2013 (UTC) Exactly, that doesn't change the fact of the bow and sword being part of the technique made of chakra rather than tools equipped by it. And yes, since it's chakra and we have seen an additional arm forming when needed/desired, it's reasonable to assume those weapons are Sasuke's own choice rather than something predetermined. His Susanoo has a sword, he is a practitioner of kenjutsu, his later form has a bow, later we find he used to be trained in archery as a child. Same goes for Madara, he changes his Susanoo as he pleases, giving it additional weapons and shapes--Elveonora (talk) 10:57, April 22, 2013 (UTC) I agree with elveonora it makes sense that the chakra changes to meet the desires of the user. -- (talk) 11:06, April 22, 2013 (UTC) eastfire Anyone else? There is no logic in listing those as tools, I vote for techniques--Elveonora (talk) 19:23, April 22, 2013 (UTC) :Is there really any need to have articles for the bow and swords at all? Unlike Yasaka Magatama and Itachi's weapons, none of them have names or backstories and everything we know about them can easily be included in this article. If we need a picture of Itachi's curved blade, we could include that in his gallery as an example of him partially manifesting Susanoo instead of the current ribcage image.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:11, April 22, 2013 (UTC) Well, I would find a removal of them altogether as too brutal of a decision, but more than certainly they aren't tools, we still can somehow justify them as techniques tho--Elveonora (talk) 20:19, April 22, 2013 (UTC) Super bump, please don\t ignore this, I find the topic important... it's like people don't even care anymore--Elveonora (talk) 10:05, April 27, 2013 (UTC) :no, they are not techniques since the chakra from the susanoo does the attack, so it is just a part of susanoo that helps with the attack, in other words, is a tool (talk) 10:41, April 27, 2013 (UTC) Since Susanoo is a chakra and a technique, and the "tools" are just part of it, nothing additionally equipped, that makes them techniques too or as suggested above, should be just merged with main article. You are forgetting that Susanoo aren't characters, they are "avatars" of sorts, extension of the user kinda like chakra arms--Elveonora (talk) 10:46, April 27, 2013 (UTC) :This is all just an assumption though. Nothing points to the fact that persons get to choose or envision what weapons their Susanoo use. It could be predetermined based on a lot of things. Sure Sasuke was trained in archery as a child, there's a high chance a lot of people were, they're shinobi after all; still I don't see how this factors into Susanoo very much. That doesn't mean that any of them get to pick choose and refuse with regards to the weapons they wield. As for Madara, I've yet to see him using anything but swords. Granted they've changed forms but that's all they've done. Even though they're "chakra given form" as you say, that doesn't make them any less of tools.--Cerez365™ (talk) 12:01, April 27, 2013 (UTC) How is chakra given form a tool? So are chakra arms tool too? Kunai is a tool, it's an actual thing and they can go and buy it. Perhaps we should also list Naruto's chakra cloak as tool too, it increases his stylishness by hundred percent. As I said, Yata Mirror and Totsuka are tools, it's something Orochimaru was even looking for and Itachi's Susanoo didn't naturally come with. Tho Sasuke's sword and bow aren't, someone can't simply sneak behind and steal it from his Susanoo and use it, it's part of it and a chakra, getting the point?--Elveonora (talk) 12:48, April 27, 2013 (UTC) use of Susanoo in the trivia, there were 3 sources that were used to state that people without Mangekyo were able to use Susanoo (chapters 393/560/577) but after reading them, there wasn't a single mention of that....... was that info in the data book or was that made up by fans..... --Deathmailrock (talk) 00:16, May 4, 2013 (UTC) :It's not referring to people without a Mangekyo, it's referring to users of Susanoo using it without having their Mangekyo clearly being active (Itachi when his eyes were blind, Madara when his Rinnegan were the active eye state). Skitts (talk) 01:28, May 4, 2013 (UTC) Sasuke's color It still doesn't look purple to me, because it isn't. It's not turquoise either. It's Grey-Blue/Silver-Blue ... the best terms for it would be either: Iceberg, Glaucous, Steelblue, Aero or something.--Elveonora (talk) 10:56, May 21, 2013 (UTC) :Policies (or at least some of the chief editors) told me to stick to primary colours. The manga version was described as violet for some time before that rule was enforced. General Awesomo 11:01, May 21, 2013 (UTC) ::Except it doesn't even slightly resemble any shade of purple or violet, the former maybe from afar, but in-close, it becomes clear that the purple "tint" isn't even there.--Elveonora (talk) 11:10, May 21, 2013 (UTC) :::Perhaps listing it as one of those choices could work. But a simple colour to understand, like silver-blue or something. Afterall, Pain's Akatsuki ring was described as purplish-grey through translations of the databook. It's a shame Sasuke's Susanoo is only coloured once in the manga. The manga's version, in my opinion, looks cooler than how it is portrayed in the anime. General Awesomo 11:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC) ::::Also what policies and editors told you "we" stick only to primary colors? What rule? What about describing Kabuto's cloak as "maroon" that's not a primary color either unless I'm mistaken.--Elveonora (talk) 11:41, May 21, 2013 (UTC) :::::"We try to stay away from intonations of colour. Stick to primary/base colours whenever possible" - Cerez365 in his summary of his edit to Susanoo's article on 13:03, 26 April 2013. General Awesomo 11:47, May 21, 2013 (UTC) ::::::Lol'd. Wasn't it you Cerez who came up with the maroon? Just in case... :D--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, May 21, 2013 (UTC) :::::::It was! 05:45, 15 July 2012 of Kabuto Yakushi's article. ::::::: #exposed General Awesomo 13:05, May 21, 2013 (UTC) :::::::: Sorry but I wouldn't want that the color of Sasuke's Susanoo was described blue grey because the picture used in the article. Actually the color of that scan results altered by the photo: in this photo of my volume (also if the quality is not the best) it's possible to see clearly like the color of the Susanoo is violet/purple also in the manga version (even if not a purple so vivid like depicted in the anime): http://i.imgur.com/kMV6HQV.jpg--[[User:JK88|JK88]] (talk) 19:33, September 28, 2013 (UTC) Good that, that indeed looks like it--Elveonora (talk) 22:33, September 28, 2013 (UTC) :Y'all are ridiculous. When I said that I meant the ridiculous colours that are added like dusty rose, peach almond toast, and hyphenated colours like yes- blue-grey. This isn't a paint shop, Sasuke's Susanoo is purple, albeit a pale shade of it, it is purple, not 50 shades in between blue and grey: purple. What more than that needs to be in the article? --Cerez365™ (talk) 23:18, September 28, 2013 (UTC) ::I substituted the picture of "Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo" using another one with a better quality.--JK88 (talk) 12:25, September 29, 2013 (UTC) :::Pngs are preferred over jpgs, I'm uploaded your png as a new version of the current png. Omnibender - Talk - 16:37, September 29, 2013 (UTC) ::::Sorry I didn't know it: I will remember this for the future.--JK88 (talk) 18:52, September 29, 2013 (UTC) Naruto's Chakra Influence? I don't think that Sasuke mastered his Susano'o due to his rival's chakra. Sasuke has never seen Susano'o before fighting Itachi, it was "small" and had no feet. When Sasuke deliver all of his powers to his Susano'o against Kakashi, it is like a brother of Itachi's, both are very similar. But then, Sasuke reaches battlefield and sees Madara's final Susano'o, floating inside it and with a complete body. It is normal that he tries to fight in a similar manner. MaskedManMadara (talk) 21:52, September 30, 2013 (UTC) :Fixed.--Cerez365™ (talk) 22:06, September 30, 2013 (UTC) :: No 'fixing'. Complete Susano'o, even with Full Body, is far smaller than what Sasuke is displaying now. Naruto's Version 1 Cloak passively powers him up, MaskedManMadara and Cerez365. Its no different than with Naruto powering up Kakashi, Hinata, or Team Asuma with his chakra. Oh, and Sasuke hasn't even been paying attention to Madara Uchiha vs Hashirama Senju's rematch, he's been focusign solely on Obito. --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:28, September 30, 2013 (UTC) :::TheUltimate3 has a question? What does Naruto's chakra has to do with Sasuke's Susanoo?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 22:37, September 30, 2013 (UTC) ::::Start dropping some references for this nonsense you're spouting and then we can talk. You're simply assuming that it has grown in size because everyone else had some sort of boost when actively using their abilities with the cloak. Prove that the sizes are different even though we've apparently already documented that a user can actively change the size of their Susanoo. Had his Susanoo grew and people commented on it like the Hyūga did for example then sure we could add it. Should we also mention that Naruto's chakra is boosting Jūgo's abilities so he can distribute a large amount of natural energy? or mayhaps that it's helping a relic like Hashirama remember the time when he was young? Maybe it's also why Ino's technique range is so far- because you know we can just assume she wasn't able to do that before.--Cerez365™ (talk) 22:40, September 30, 2013 (UTC) ::: Sasuke's Complete Susano'o was small enough to fit on Aoba's head before Naruto's Version 1 Chakra Cloak. Afterwards, this stage of Susano'o, which isn't anywhere near the size of a Tailed Beast, grows to the size of Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode. We've seen multiple Complete Stage Susanoo be much smaller than a Tailed Beast due to Madara's demonstration of it. And when has ANY Uchiha made a stage of this stage of Susano'o grow to the size of a Tailed Beast? --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:15, September 30, 2013 (UTC) ::::If I'm not mistaken, I just pointed out the fact that someone pointed out and referenced the fact that they can change the shape of their Susanoo at will. please see the overview for references. So unless Sasuke was bumping chakras with Naruto back then, your point is moot. Another moot point is comparing them to other Uchiha's forms. No one ever said there was a set size for a person's Susanoo. Susanoo's size varies enough on its own, we don't need to be making such blatant assumptions.--Cerez365™ (talk) 23:22, September 30, 2013 (UTC) :::::I don't think the size of Susanoo has anything to do with Naruto. Also correct me if I'm wrong but I don't even see a chakra shroud around Sasuke when the Susanoo started hitting stuff.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 23:24, September 30, 2013 (UTC) :::::::Nah, he does have it. But so does Jūgram and most recently Hashirama whose appeared out of nowhere.--Cerez365™ (talk) 23:29, September 30, 2013 (UTC) ::::: Reread through the reference area. There were no altering of Susano'o's sheer size by Sasuke during that battle, nor actual shape transformation. Complete Stage Susanoo isn't that big on its own too, we've seen countless times that it can fit on Rock Pillars Naruto chapter 478, pages 08-10 and on Boss Summon heads (like Aoba Naruto chapter 634, page 10). Why assume Naruto's Version 1 shroud didn't make Sasuke stronger, Cerez when it was clearly established that was the effect? Jutsu becomes larger and stronger with it on.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:40, September 30, 2013 (UTC) :::::: I concur with Cerez and Ultimate. Unless stated otherwise, I don't see how Naruto's chakra has anything to do with Sasuke's Susanoo. Sasuke's Susanoo is still immature, and thus, still prone to developments. This was simply another development. He does it in every major battle he's been in since he gained Susanoo. Not to mention, Tobirama eludes to Sasuke following in Madara's step, as far as skill goes. He makes this note after seeing Sasuke's Susanoo go on the offensive. He would have no purpose of saying that if it was Naruto's chakra doing all the work, as that wouldn't say anything about Sasuke's skill. You can't ever properly reference your material. Most of its is specualtion and personal opinion that you inject into the articles. So unless you have some cold, hard, proof that Naruto's chakra somehow = bigger Susanoo, then it has zero places on this article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:06, October 1, 2013 (UTC) ::: Other than Susanoo being a ninjutsu and Naruto's chakra enhancing ninjutsu techniques and other abilities as shown from other people who have received it? If he was doing this without the cloak, there'd be no debate. But since he HAS it? Complete Stage Susanoo isn't supposed to be this large anyway, its nearly as big as Madara's Final Stage Susano'o (with chakra unstabilized). Sasuke is doing a feat he couldn't have due to Naruto. We have a before and after with it. Its plain as day, I've even cited Sasuke's Susanoo sizes BEFORE this chapter yet you ignore them so you can claim the sheer size of the Complete Stage Susanoo he has now is all his own.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:32, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :: More to the point, this isn't the first time Naruto (or Kurama) enhanced a Mangekyo Sharingan user. Look at Kakashi, his Kamui goes from draining him from warping human sized objects to warping gigantic Tailed Beasts like Gyuki with one go, and even being confident to warp the full Shinju in its multi-kilometer Mature Form with Kamui. Why would Sasuke be ANY different than that?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:48, October 1, 2013 (UTC) Not sure if Im on SaiyaMan's side, but are you guys saying that Naruto's chakra had no effect on Susnaoo, or on Sasuke? (Despite what you may think) There's a difference. Im all for saying we dont know the extent to which Naruto's chakra enhanced Sasuke, but we cannot simply say it's effect is null. We have enough evidence to say that it definitely does something. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 02:28, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :I am not saying outright that it had 0 effect on Sasuke's Susanoo because to be honest I do not know and that is the point. We can't prove it because it was never stated hence we can't perpetrate it as fact. Should everything that the shinobi have done since then be accredited to Naruto's chakra? Even though we have no basis to say that more than it boosted some attacks before? --Cerez365™ (talk) 18:00, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :: Naruto's cloak has boosted ALL attacks before, not 'some'. Hinata's goes from branch deflecting to Ten-Tails tail tossing, Shikamaru can now restrain the Ten-Tails, Ino can take over Obito without him able to force her out at a speed faster than BM Naruto can move, Choji grows to a far larger size and is able to restrain the Ten-Tails' tail arms, Kakashi can now Kamui Tailed Beast size objects... the increase of power is immense. Sasuke's Susanoo grows from sitting on Aoba's head comfortably to Tailed Beast Size in a Complete Susanoo state. The only thing we can credit for Sasuke is his Susanoo growing legs.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:03, October 1, 2013 (UTC) Quick question. Where exactly was it stated that they can "seemingly alter the size of their Susanoo"? Seems a bit too presumptuous. ~ KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 19:08, October 1, 2013 (UTC) : I've reread where the reference comes from. There was no altering of size, if anything it was inconsistency of Kishimoto drawing a giant technique like Susanoo or messes with perspective. Sasuke's Complete and Incomplete Susanoo stayed the same exact size throughout the fight with Danzo, and we either get a close up of Danzo or Sasuke having his Susanoo, instead of crouching over, rise to its full height to smash Danzo on the stone pillar. The only Susanoo user who could alter the shape of his Susanoo is Madara anyway (given he can shape it around Kurama).--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:33, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :Fixed until further debate. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 19:48, October 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Oh, so Madara can alter it, but Sasuke with the same exact eyes and skills to rival him can't? There is no further debate to be had, it's simple: until someone says the size of his Susanoo is affected by Kurama's Version 1 chakra, then it isn't going to be perpetrated as fact.--Cerez365™ (talk) 20:05, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :::That's totally acceptable Cerez. But what you fail to notice is that Madara completely manipulated it's shape, like never seen before, ever. So to generalize that ability is every bit of speculation as what SaiyaMan is trying to get across. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 20:14, October 1, 2013 (UTC) : Except it doesn't need to be said Cerez. Naruto's Version 1 Cloak passively affects the size of Sasuke's Susanoo like it does with everyone else's technique's! More to the point, its a COMPLETE STAGE SUSANOO that is giant size, NOT a Perfect Susanoo! Sasuke has gotten help for his Susanoo's current size Cerez from Naruto powering him up. He's NO different than ANY OTHER SHINOBI IN THE ENTIRE ALLIANCE right now. Do you even read the examples I gave Cerez? Or do you brush them off to continue to claim its Sasuke's power solely?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:10, October 1, 2013 (UTC) And again, Complete Susanoo stage isn't as large as a Tailed Beast. Hell its small enough, without legs, to fit into the Baku's mouth. Legs just double its size since we don't have a torso, arms, and head anymore. Sasuke isn't even using Perfect Susanoo, he's using Complete Susanoo, there's a difference in the stages Cerez.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:13, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :Your argument is flawed when you consider the fact that Both Itachi and Sasuke's final Susanoo are the same size as their complete one. So if Madara can expand the size of his final susanoo, why couldn't he do it to his complete one? In fact considering his actions in the kage fight and his thoughts of them as weak and pathetic, it makes sense that he didn't make it that size. And while I'm quite sure Naruto's chakra gave Sasuke a super powerup, as proven by Madara, its not required to make susanoo that size, therefore that kind of info shouldn't be in this article, it should only be in Sasuke's abilities section. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:29, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :: If anyones argument is flawed, its yours. 100%, pure, A-1, speculation. His sizes are consistent through it's transformation. (other than armor equipping Kurama) KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 20:34, October 1, 2013 (UTC) Let me see if I can type this slower: I am neither for nor against this point, in fact I could care less. I am against the addition of it as fact when it cannot be proven with concrete references. Until a time where it is actually commented on and we can say chapter x page(s) y-z, then it cannot be presented as fact because that opens us up to speculation across all fronts/abilities (why aren't you advocating for those as well). This is a basic concept of the wikia I'd expect someone who has been here for ~six years to understand.--Cerez365™ (talk) 20:22, October 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Ok then, so lets not fight for anything but what can be supported by concrete evidence. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 20:31, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :That should be how everyone in a perfect world would think. Yes, Naruto's chakra does make things stronger, whatever context that may include. However, there's no evidence to say Sasuke's Susanoo is being improved by Naruto's chakra. That being said, it is likely it is. In fact, if you go to Chapter 647 and the last panel of the chapter, you'll see Sasuke still has the cloak while inside Susanoo. Given the evidence we have for what the cloak/shroud does for others, and the way it functions, I think it'd be safe to assume it does affect it. But this evidence would be circumstantial in that if we take what we know, it'd make sense, but it dosen't mean it's true. Therefore, it should not be added because we simply do not know. --Taynio (talk) 20:40, October 1, 2013 (UTC) : Under that pretense, lets not accredit it to his "mastery", either. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 20:45, October 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Given the nature of the topic, that'd be the most ideal outcome until we have more information. You can argue either side, mastery vs chakra, and both would be right. But the issue is which is "more right". Both have great points and no flaw in their argument. --Taynio (talk) 21:02, October 1, 2013 (UTC) :::This is a slippery slop we're treading...though an interesting detail is how Sasuke only managed to even manifest a two legged Susanoo after'gaining Naruto's cloak. He didn't even manifested that on any of the other fights, mere moments/minutes/hours before...right now...this is way to split down the middle to make a call. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:09, October 2, 2013 (UTC) Uuh... I'd like to point out that Kurama's Chakra Shroud on both Sasuke and Juugo vanishes a couple pages before they do the Senjutsu Susanoo. Also, I figured that legs were just a new faucet of the technique he gained with EMS, since Madara can do it without a Bijuu's Chakra and all. Also... Madara used his Susanoo for quite a while without legs. Sasuke only started using legs when he needed them actually, like Madara had earlier. But yeah, the shroud vanishes a page or two BEFORE he starts Senjutsu Susanoo. Your welcome. Skarrj (talk) 07:43, October 2, 2013 (UTC) :Google the raws. They have the shroud there, even, in every panel. --Taynio (talk) 08:19, October 2, 2013 (UTC) I find it baffling that a group of intelligent human beings can possibly equate Sasuke gaining Naruto's chakra to him gaining the knowledge to create legs with his Susanoo. Because somehow gaining someone else's energy causes a light bulb to go off, "Oh, I can make legs with this!". What's next? Sakura can use Byakugō no Jutsu because of Naruto's chakra? Wow, Naruto must be ninja Jesus then. Also, considering that Madara's complete Susanoo, with legs, ''towered above the Kage, even before it became "final Susanoo", the fact that people can increase the size of their Susanoo being called into question makes me question the ability of some in this discussion to read a chapter. Also, I'd note that Sasuke's "complete" Susanoo looks enormous in the chapter it debuts in, and not so much when its in the, I don't know, confined space of a cave when battling Kabuto. But, this is the speculation wing of the site pushing this. I shouldn't be surprised. Cerez is right. We shouldn't post jack diddly squat until something is stated or we know more. Honestly, its not a hard concept to adhere to. You guys act like you're having your hair yanked out by the roots for being told to wait. ~ ''Ten Tailed Fox'' 05:15, October 3, 2013 (UTC) : On that note, I'd like to mention that I noticed SuperSaiyaMan mentioning that "Final" Susanoo is not the same size as a tailed beast. I guess he missed the chapter where Madara's rivaled the size of Kurama, and then, later in the same fight, was large enough to cover Kurama in its armor. But those are facts, so why should we us those? I can see that Koto Senju elected himself the site's decider on this matter by removing the sentences and references that clearly show this, so I guess logic has officially flown out the window. ~ ''Ten Tailed Fox'' 05:23, October 3, 2013 (UTC) ::No Fox-Boss, I believe you have already taken the role of the Omnipotent Decider of All Things Debatable. Despite all that, you are a truly wonderful editor, so-much-so that I owe you a deal of gratitude as you are the inspiration for most of my edits, here on the wiki. But even i notice that you seem to have such a condescending attitude when you discuss any topic, making it hard to want to rebuttal at all. Even then, I agree with most decisions you make and opinion you have. It's just that this time I totally disagree w/ what youre saying. ::However, on a less personal note, I removing hose sentences and references, on the same basis that Naruto's chakra cloak's effect came into question: ambiguity between facts and editors. We dont know 100% if the size of the Susanoo can be easily manipulated. Like an editor said after me, it could be drawing errors, for all we know. Also, while on the topic of leg growth and size, we dont know fully, what to accredit those two instances to. Therefore it's imperative that we remember that ''' we are ALL assuming. As far as we can tell, it' simply knowledge and mastery vs. amount of chakra used. Heck Fox-Boss, you even mentioned the seal that Sakura and Tsunade share. By your example, you seem to imply that the legs of susanoo is an aspect of mastery, over power. Am i right? I mean, Sakura can create a crater, but if her chakra gets to pumping, then she can blow a battlefield to smithereens (my great example =/). Does that equate to her mastery or her chakra usage? Im sure that you can tell there exist a difference. ~ KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 06:49, October 3, 2013 (UTC) :: Ten Tailed Fox, can you please be less condescending to people? As well as stop being dishonest? Sasuke's Complete Stage Susanoo has always been small, when it first was revealed in Chapter 478, page 8, it was three times Sasuke's height. When the Baku is summoned in 479, it can literally fit into the boss summon's mouth. Oh, and out of a confined space Sasuke's Complete Susanoo can fit comfortably on top of Aoba's head in chapter 635, page 10. Even Sasuke's Final Susanoo revealed in chapter 574, page 10 is just five times his height. Ample evidence that Naruto's chakra gave the Complete Stage Susanoo a size increase so it can rival the size of Kurama's torso from Naruto's Version 1 shroud. And Ten Tailed Fox, you're confusing Final Unstabilized and Final Stabilized for Madara's Susanoo, I already said his Final unstabilized Susanoo is as large as Kurama. Madara's Complete Susanoo though? Its no where near that size as shown on plenty of panels, notably during the Gokage battle. There's ample evidence that Naruto powered Sasuke up and, like everyone else whose recieved his chakra, his attack-Susanoo this time, gets massive.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 06:22, October 3, 2013 (UTC) :::: I'm not confusing anything. Re-read the chapter in which Madara fights Hashirama in the flashback. The stabilized form and stabilized forms are both exactly the same height as Kurama is. Secondly, I have to be condescending. If I'm condescending, then it either A) makes people want to go search for the facts to rebut me, which can either help my argument, or help theirs. You're welcome. Or B), it makes them realize how dumb they sound when they make an argument with no basis, as you're doing, and makes them want to go away, saving the rest of us a headache. Frankly, if you're making a decent argument, I'll be level with you. But if you're making one with a flawed premise, then you're going to get toasted. Accept it and move on. :::: Now, as to the whole Mastery vs Chakra argument. Its not about that. Explain to me how Sasuke gaining Naruto's chakra gives him the knowledge to produce Susanoo legs? Can you do that? He has never seen it done before. Ever. He never witnessed the battles Madara had with Naruto and the Kage, and therefore, had to have realized he had that ability on his own. I hope you realize that. No one is arguing that Sasuke's attack strength is greater because of Naruto's chakra, but what you are stupidly, I must say, arguing is that, somehow, Naruto's chakra is granting Sasuke the knowledge to improve Susanoo. That is a delusional argument. Sasuke is getting just as much augmentation from Jugo's chakra, as he is Naruto's right now, so you can't tell whose chakra is doing what, other than we know for sure Jugo's chakra made him more Senjutsu-like. That's all. :::: As to the Susanoo size argument. Sasuke's Susanoo has not remained the same size. Ever. Nor has Itachi's. Nor has Madara's. Your references, SuperSaiyaMan, as usual, mean nothing. I see them, I've seen them, and there are clear size variations. Susanoo is one's chakra. They have never, and will never, have a set, pre-determined size, no matter how hard you argue it. Madara's incomplete Susanoo was enormous, and his complete and Final Susanoo were tailed beast size, shown from the flashback chapter. Furthermore, each Susanoo is unique to its users, so who are you to standardize each variation by saying Sasuke's is too big? How do you know that's not just Sasuke's version's natural size? You can't prove it, since you've never seen it with legs outside of this instance, so all of your points fall null, as Cerez pointed out at the beginning. Now, let's stop being childish, and put the references back where they belong. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 08:24, October 3, 2013 (UTC) :::::By the Light this is still going on?!--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 11:36, October 3, 2013 (UTC) :::::: Its always the simple, common sense issues that get dragged on. Conspiracy theorists always have to argue their theories to the death. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:48, October 3, 2013 (UTC) ::::::: Honestly, I am lost for words O_O. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 16:54, October 3, 2013 (UTC) :::::::: I am too. I mean, you removed clearly sourced and referenced material based on the opinion of two people, without asking others first. That is truly astounding. Susanoo's size has been documented as changing throughout its appearances and SuperSaiyaMan is known for distorting facts in his edits. You should have waited, and they need to go back, regardless of how the other side of this argument turns out. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:15, October 3, 2013 (UTC) ::::::: How is it distorting facts when you are doing it and being so blatantly dishonest you can't admit your wrong? Susanoo has always had a consistent size. 'Madara's Incomplete Susanoo was enormous', it wasn't. I've cited again and again the pre-Naruto Cloak stage of Sasuke's Complete Susanoo, you brush it off. Madara's Final Susanoo, chakra unstabilized, is so much larger than Sasuke's its not even a concrete example, and then you bring up Chakra Stabilized for Perfect Susanoo to claim the size varies? Complete Susanoo, the stage with skin and the weapons, has always had a consistent size. Three to four times as large as the user (twice that with legs). Sasuke's current giant sized Complete Susanoo though is nearly as big as a Tailed Beast in full height, which is as the evidence shows, far, far larger than previous Complete Susanoo stages. We even have a before and after picture for Sasuke's Complete Susanoo when it comes to size: as I've shown, Sasuke's Complete Susanoo could fit on Aoba's head or be sucked into the Baku's mouth. Its never been enormous. Nor has Madara's until his unique Final and Perfect Stages. Can you please STOP LYING Ten Tailed Fox since its obvious you are.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:07, October 3, 2013 (UTC) To quote Seelantau: Your pitiful trolling is naught before me. Cerez and I have both pointed out the flaws in your arguments. The fact that the information was correctly sourced and referenced goes against everything you say. Now, I'd suggest you let this drop, because its not getting you, or anyone here, anywhere productive. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 18:16, October 3, 2013 (UTC) : How is it trolling? You haven't pointed out any flaws in the size argument, no, instead you LIE each and every time I bring up examples. You lie, then you attempt to force your opinion on me and then act like a big jerk whenever you're called out on it. I post examples, I post evidence. You? 'Susanoo size has never been consistent' even though, most of the time, it has, and you want to give Madara's Susanoo size to Sasuke just so you don't have to look at the evidence. I already conceded it wasn't due to Naruto's chakra that Sasuke's Susanoo grew legs, yet you continually brought it up Ten Tailed Fox and then attacked me, then insult me and then try to BULLY me. That isn't what a Moderator such as yourself is SUPPOSED to do.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:20, October 3, 2013 (UTC) TheUltimate3's Pain Train TheUltimate3 has officially grown tired of this very very stupid discussion. So here is what is going into the article as well as the reasons behind it. *Size of Susanoo changes depending on creators whim. *Sasuke made his Susanoo grow legs because he could, not because of Naruto's chakra. *Despite that, Naruto's chakra did grant Sasuke's Susanoo an increase in power, but that is completely unrelated to whatever else Susanoo is capable of doing. *Jugo. Alright then. This is what is going into the article. I don't care what that discussion was trying to reach. TheUltimate3 has decided.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 19:58, October 3, 2013 (UTC) I know that I am late here but TTF I think you need to seriously re-think about the way that you talk to people, think twice before you decide to go and hurt somebodys feelings (I'm not hating I'm just giving you a 'friendly' reminder) --Root根 20:06, October 3, 2013 (UTC) :Let administrators deal with someones attitude. Focus on the now which is not much of a now because I have decreed what is going to happen.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 20:13, October 3, 2013 (UTC) :: Good, glad that's dealt with. And Root, I'd be a lot nicer if certain people around here weren't removing sourced material because they feel that its not the information they want displayed. It also is a bit peeving to get called a liar by using sourced material as the basis of my argument, all the while three other respected members of the site are saying the exact same thing. Grant, I do apologize to SuperSaiyaMan, as I was a bit out of hand, but I would like to point out that if information is sourced, and you disagree with it, then discuss it. You don't just start deleting crap left and right because, in your opinion, its wrong. That tends to push people's button. In the meantime, now that Ultimate-sama has laid down the law, I think its best we all just drop this and move on with our day. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:58, October 3, 2013 (UTC)